I've posted this here because the link (click on header) only includes part of the interview - here are both parts.
Perfect
Sound Forever Interview : March 2020
Who
were your greatest musical influences? Who do you draw inspiration
from, both in the past and present?
~~~
Mmmm tricky one! There were / are many influences. I was lucky to
have parents who both loved jazz, so I was exposed to that from a
very early age, like 11 or 12. In 1961, aged 16, they gave me
permission to go with a friend to see a concert by Dizzy Gillespie –
the support group was the John Coltrane quintet, who I'd never even
heard of until then. This was the beginning of me starting to listen
to music other than what my parents were into, not so much the really
out there free stuff, but Blue Note style hard bop and soul jazz. I
guess my 2 favourite early saxophone influences were Jackie McLean
and Cannonball Adderley. I was also hugely influenced by the UK
rhythm and blues scene centred around guitarist Alexis Korner, who
was not only the grandfather of that whole movement, but also the 1st
musician to incorporate jazz into the scene, with players like Dick
Heckstall-Smith and Phil Seamen. One of my absolute top fave groups
from the mid-60's was the Graham Bond Organisation, with Bond on alto
sax, organ, and vocals, Heckstall-Smith on tenor and soprano saxes,
and the pre-Cream rhythm section of Jack Bruce on bass and drummer
Ginger Baker. Live they were definitely the loudest, most raucous and
funky band on the circuit – unfortunately their records never
captured their live sound – I often wonder what they would have
sounded like if they'd been produced by the Blue Note team! The 1st
bands I played in were all heavily influenced by soul, R & B, and
jazz-rock – it didn't take me long to realise that jazz was
actually pretty difficult to play, but soul etc was a lot easier, so
it was a great learning experience for me. I didn't start seriously
listening to rock music untll '67, when musicians like Zappa and
Beefheart (and the Beatles) changed the goalposts for ever. Like many
people I'm still mainly inspired by the music I grew up with, rather
than any newer artists, but I try to keep up with any developments
which sound interesting. Groups like The Necks have transformed ideas
about what you can do with a conventional piano / bass / drums
line-up, saxophonists like Colin Stetson have added to the
post-free-jazz saxophone vocabulary, and electronic music has evolved
in so many different ways it's almost impossible to keep up with them
all. ~~~
I hear a great deal of free jazz in your playing. Is
this a source for you? Who from this community did you listen to
and like, if anyone?
~~~
Yes it was a logical step to go from listening to hard bop to
checking out more adventurous musicians like Coltrane, Charles
Mingus, and Eric Dolphy, but another major turning point was seeing
the Spontaneous Music Ensemble with drummer John Stevens and
saxophonist Evan Parker in 1967 – this was way beyond what most
people would call “music” - it had more to do with creating sound
waves and (an overused word these days) sound scapes – a very
physical experience in a small London club with 5 people in the
audience, including me and a drummer friend I was playing in a soul
band with at the time. The very next day we were trying to recreate
what we'd heard, or should I say experienced! From then onwards I
started listening to more UK free improvisers like Brotherhood Of
Breath, which was a kind of melting pot of all the top free players –
I saw them playing with as many as 25 – 30 players, including Evan
Parker, Mike Osborne, Dudu Pukwana, Lol Coxhill, Marc Charig, Louis
Moholo, Mongezi Feza, Nick Evans, and many more. Then I started
checking out the American free scene, particularly Sun Ra and the Art
Ensemble of Chicago. I was fascinated not just by their music, which
covered a whole spectrum from traditional African drumming through to
20th century European art music, but the whole theatrical
presentation, with costumes, face paint, and (in Sun Ra's case)
dancers, fire eaters, and a light show. ~~~
How has your
dystonia affected your playing?
~~~
Enormously! Not just the fact that it affected all the muscles I need
to play saxophone, but the psychological damage as well – before I
was finally diagnosed in 1992, I had to put up with people staring at
me and making very audible comments – my jaw was jumping around
with a life of its own, my neck was twisting from side to side, and
my eyes kept jamming shut. As one friend put it, it looked like I'd
just snorted a mountain of bad speed or cocaine, and other people
since have often assumed the same thing. Fortunately it hasn't
impacted so seriously on my flute embouchure, but I have to play
saxophone a lot, otherwise it's back to the basics as soon as I take
even a short break from it. But I'm one of the lucky ones – the
medication works (more or less) without too many side effects, and
once I was diagnosed I went straight into warrior mode – fighting
the enemy within became my mantra, and it seems to have worked. Apart
from having to take the medication for the rest of my life I can't
really complain. And (so far) I'm not doing too badly for my age!
~~~
Why did you decide to leave Henry Cow? Was it musical
direction or some other reason? Did you ever play with them again
after you left?
~~~
Ahh ... the inevitable question! It's complicated. One thing I've
learnt is that I'm not a very good team player – hence the various
solo / duo / trio projects over the years. Once it gets to 3 or more
other musicians I start to feel claustrophobic and that impacts
directly on my creativity. I can deal with a big group but only for a
short time - being on the road with such a group really does my head
in! Anyway back to HC – I was very unhappy about the contract we
signed with Virgin – in the end I was out on a limb – the bottom
line was either sign the contract or leave the group, so I took the
easy way out and signed, only to leave 7 or 8 months later! The whole
record company thing was more political than musical, but there were
musical differences bubbling under the surface – I felt that the
written music was becoming more complex simply for the sake of it,
and the improvisation was also taking a different direction –
moving away from the more high energy free jazz approach, and towards
a more electronic / ambient style. In the end I was the only person
playing totally acoustically, and yet I was still the loudest player,
which was very frustrating. Before joining HC I had already
experimented with electronic effects while playing with Mouseproof,
and at this point had no desire to go back to that. I have to admit
that a lot of the group's internal dialogue concerning politics and
music was frankly way beyond my intellectual comfort zone (if that's
not an oxymoron!), and still is – if I watch some of the rare video
clips of the band in its later incarnations, I really can't imagine
myself onstage with them! But despite all that, yes I did play with
them afterwards – they invited me to play on a couple of tunes in
London when they toured with Captain Beefheart in '74, and I appear
on a couple of tracks on later albums. And I still get to play with
Chris, Tim, and John occasionally. ~~~
Before
Henry Cow, what kind of bands were you playing in during the 60s?
~~~
I started out playing soul and rhythm 'n' blues covers, and jazz
rock. My first gigs were in Manchester in 1965, playing in Ivan's
Meads, a soul band whose keyboard player was John Mayall's younger
brother. What we didn't realise at the time was that we were actually
part of the first wave of Northern Soul, as it was later called. When
I auditioned for them I hadn't done any serious playing for two or
three years, but I got the job because there were virtually no sax
players of my age to be found - all the horn players were much older
and playing jazz, mainly mainstream with a few be-boppers thrown in –
they looked down on soul as being too commercial and not ”real
music” like jazz......strange days! I moved back to London in early
'66 and started going regularly to auditions (in those days the
Melody Maker magazine was full of advertisements for musicians
wanted, and musicians looking for work). There was certainly no
shortage of sax players then, and I ended up joining a
semi-professional soul covers band, who somehow miraculously played
support on a couple of early Jimi Hendrix gigs. Around late '66 I
met a drummer from Liverpool, who was the first serious professional
musician I'd played with up until then – he helped me hook up with
various relatively short-lived groups before putting me in contact
with Crazy Mabel, a jazz-rock group he had just left – they had a
management / agency deal and played regularly in London clubs like
The Speakeasy, The Marquee, and The Pheasantry, as well as playing
the burgeoning university circuit, which was at the time the main
source of income for many bands. By '68 we had played all over the
UK, and had residencies in Holland, Switzerland, and Norway, but
despite the business connections (or maybe because of them!) we never
really made any serious money, and it was around this time that I
discovered the joys, freedom, and money-making possibilities of
busking on the streets and in underground stations, playing pop /
rock covers with a guitarist / singer and a bongo player. It was
while busking in the Portobello Road (hippy central at the time) that
I met Gerry “Mouseproof” Fitzgerald, who had just landed a
lucrative record deal with MCA – the recording of his debut album
was my initiation into rock experimentation, and through him I got to
meet Daevid Allen, Kevin Ayers, Lady June, and other Canterbury Scene
people. I also met John Martyn, who I played a few gigs with, plus
got quite a few well-paid recording sessions as a direct result of
meeting different musicians and producers while busking. ~~~
What
kind of bond did you find you had with the other members of Henry
Cow early on?
~~~
Well I already knew Chris Cutler – we were at school together,
although he was a couple of years younger than me, so we didn't have
a lot of contact, but I had played a couple of times with him in his
band Louise before he joined HC. I was hungry for some new musical
adventures, and although I had a sneaky feeling that joining them
would be a bit like going back to school (it was!), I felt it would
be good for me to get into some more serious score-reading, and the
free improvisation side of things was very attractive to me – I had
dabbled in it after seeing John Stevens and Evan Parker in '67, but
had never been involved in a band which practised it to such an
extent. The atmosphere was very tolerant, and there was no pressure
on me to learn any of the written music quickly, which was necessary
as my reading skills were fairly basic – I learnt the more
difficult passages by sitting down with the composer and using a
combination of reading and listening to them playing the part. Tim
Hodginson and I quickly built up a “brotherhood of breath” horn
section kind of relationship, and John Greaves and I exemplified the
more “let's party” side of things – he liked to drink, and I
liked to smoke dope, so we got on well socially speaking. When I
first joined, Chris and John had apartments in the same house, and
that was where we rehearsed every day. Steve Hillage also lived
there, and when he joined Gong I moved into his apartment, so with
three of the five members sharing the house, there was a fair amount
of hanging out and socialising, which definitely helped the group
spirit to develop. ~~~
What were the sessions like for the
first Henry Cow album "Legend"?
~~~
The music was well-rehearsed (some of the compositions were developed
during the early days of the band), and we had played it on stage
many times, but it was the first time the band had ever been in a
studio for such a long period, so there was a steep learning curve to
negotiate. Most of the sessions were recorded by Tom Newman, who had
no experience of experimental music and musicians, so he was quite
shocked and often amused by our discussions, humour, strategies, and
general “otherness” in terms of the more“normal” rock bands
he was used to working with, but he was very patient and did a grand
job. Unlike many sound engineers he was quite happy to let us fiddle
about with the mixing desk, and it wasn't long before he started
chipping in ideas; I think having a different engineer would have
resulted in a very different and perhaps less interesting album. As I
recall the atmosphere in general was quite relaxed and creative – I
can't remember any serious arguments or disagreements, despite the
fact that I was very unhappy with the contract we had signed with
Virgin, and not exactly on very friendly terms with most of the
company executives. ~~~
You also guested with Slapp Happy and
Hatfield and the North. What was it like working with them?
~~~
Being in the studio with Slapp Happy was certainly a more
light-hearted, fun, and relaxed affair than recording with HC. I had
already rehearsed with them, and initially they liked having me
around and wanted me to play on everything, although their producer
Steve Morse had other ideas – he was the one who (quite rightly)
decided on the instrumentation for each song, which I think is one of
the album's strong points. Unfortunately Slapp Happy had just signed
a management deal with Andrew King (Blackhill Enterprises), and Steve
had experienced a bad run-in with him some years earlier – Andrew
came to the studio to see how things were going, immediately
recognised Steve, and fired him on the spot. A great pity – I
remember hearing Steve's early rough mixes and finding them better
than the final release.
I
only had one evening / night in the studio with the Hatfields. HC
were in the middle of some very intensive rehearsals for a theatre
production of Shakespeare's “The Tempest” - when I say intensive,
I mean getting up at the crack of dawn, driving for about an hour to
the theatre in Watford, setting up, rehearsing / composing until 6pm,
packing up the equipment, driving back to the house in London,
setting up again, rehearsing until 11 or 12, sleeping, then repeating
the whole cycle again, for several weeks. So for the Hatfield session
I left Watford on the train after rehearsals, arrived at the Manor
Studio in time for dinner, went into the studio and recorded until
around breakfast time, then got the train back to Watford to continue
rehearsing, after which I came down with an almighty dose of the flu.
Have to say sympathy from the HC boys was in extremely short supply;
just get on with the job was the general vibe. The Hatfield session
took the whole night because they assumed that I could pretty much
sight read all the scores, because I was playing this very
complicated music with HC, but (see above) the reality was very
different. They very sensibly used Jimmy Hastings on sax and flute
for later album sessions – he could pretty much sight read
everything. However they did invite me to play on their short UK
tour with The Northettes, plus Lol Coxhill, Lyn Dobson, Jeremy
Baines, and various other wind players.~~~
You have also
founded several bands yourself like Red Balune and Random Bob.
What kinds of music were you looking to do and explore with each of
these bands?
~~~
Red Balune was more of a mixed-media group than anything else. Formed
in Bristol in '77, we initially started working with a
community-based charity called Share Comunity Theatre; they ran a
kind of half-way house for ex-prisoners, incorporating a heady mix of
Esalen Institute style encountering, and direct creative therapy
sessions with mentally and physically handicapped people,
schizophrenics, and what I can only describe as feral teenagers from
one of the toughest areas of town. We then started performing in
public with various musicians, poets, dancers, and performance
artists, including two of the ex-prisoners, both of whom had served
sentences for possession of shotguns, armed robbery, and assaulting
police officers. Our self-run record company of the time, MCCB
Records, actually grew out of a performance idea; a very long story
which I'm saving for “the book”, when I finally get around to
writing it! I was once asked in an interview what my biggest
contribution as an artist was – I had to give equal credit to my
solo EP “Chemical Bank”, and being involved with Share Community
Theatre. In December '77 we embarked on a 32 gigs in 30 days
whirlwind tour of Holland – Cathy Williams and I arrived in London
3 or 4 days before the first gig, having just lost our bass player
and drummer. We stayed in the HC house, and fortunately one of their
neighbours was Colin McClure, who had played double bass on the first
Radar Favourites demo tape; he had a drummer friend Robin Musgrove,
who also had a van (we had no transport). We persuaded them to join
us for the tour, they accepted, and we all arrived in Holland
completely unrehearsed but raring to go. Anyone who could play an
instrument or was willing to put on a crazy costume and play at being
a performer was welcome to join in; by the end of the tour we were
often on (off and around!) stage with anything up to ten people.
Every gig was different – we had found time to rehearse some
structured material, but most of the music was totally improvised.
Straight after the tour we went into a small studio in Bristol where
we recorded the single Spider In Love / Capitalist Kid, the first
release on the MCCB label. In early '78 the whole band (me, Cathy,
our daughter Louise, Robin, and Colin), moved to Holland; the rest is
history.....or not, depending on your point of view!
Random
Bob was formed shortly after I was kicked out of Black Sheep in '82;
I was getting very dissatisfied with the experimental scene in
general – a lot of doom and gloom, some weird and very unhealthy
right-wing stuff creeping in via the industrial music scene - my
reaction to a lot of it was “Take a break in the sun somewhere,
chill out for Christ's sake”. I had taken a brief sabbatical from
performing, but then started getting together once a week or so to
jam just for the fun of it, with Colin on bass, cello, and tuba, and
Henk Weltevreden on keyboards. Later we met Asad Oberoi, an Indian
percussionist, and that set the scene for a kind of improvised world
fusion music, which was fun to play but didn't really catch on with
the public (I guess hardcore HC / Canterbury fans were pretty
horrified!). Eventually we started incorporating more structured song
forms, Asad left, to be replaced by drummer Coen Aalberts, but we
weren't really getting anywhere so things just fizzled out, as they
do sometimes. In '86 I had a lot of problems renewing my residence
permit in Holland, and ended up heading back to Brussels. Another
city, another chapter....
